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| pressing frets - how much pressure? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41814 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I have one of those Stewmac fret press adapters for drill presses, and I don't think pressing frets are as easy as Stewmac makes it out to be. For one thing, with a good fit between slot/tang, when I try to press the frets in sometimes the fret does not want to stay in, but spring back out as soon as I release the pressure unless I use a LOT of pressure (like really crank down on the handle), whereas the wire would stay put when hammered. Only when the fit was very tight would the wire stay in the slot and stay put. How much pressure is needed to press frets, and can a drill press achieve the adequate pressure needed to seat frets properly? It looks like an arbor press is better at this, properly modified of course. The only problem would be that you can't refret a set neck guitar with an arbor press. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
It's loud, and I've gotten noise complaints from neighbours hammering frets. Also Stewmac says it's a "better" way of fretting so I'd like to know if it is really better. For refrets I have to use a hammer if it's an acoustic, no way you can press over fretboard tongue and no way any arbor press will allow an acoustic guitar in it. |
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| Author: | David Malicky [ Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
A dead-blow hammer is quieter, but maybe not quiet enough. It does take a lot of force. Our student guitar process is a little unusual: 0.023" tang into 0.022" slot in Sapele (1 piece neck, interference fit gives a nice 'set' in the softer wood). We do 3-4 frets at once with a thick steel spreader plate to prevent over-pressing and bypass the usual abrasive leveling/dressing. In a hydraulic press with a load cell, it's usually around 1500 lb to be fully set, so in the ballpark of 500 lb per fret. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
So how are frets pressed at a factory? I know some high end factory still hammer them in but just curious. I'm really feeling a drill press isn't designed to put out the required pressure. An arbor press can do more for sure but the drill press allows bigger items to be pressed. When I try to press them with the drill press I keep having a fear of actually damaging the drill press from the amount of pressure I put on the table. I'm definitely better at hammering frets now than when I first started, can get fairly consistent height but it will still require leveling. The glue really helps with that consistency (lubes the slot making it easier to go down, and keeps it from coming back up later) |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I also tried the drill press when I first started out but like you said, it's not that great. Too much spring in the system and I also got the feeling that the drill press did not like being used as an arbor press. I quickly gravitated to a combination of Jaws I and a dead blow hammer. Jaws I is great. I wouldn't bother with Jaws II and III. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
How good is Jaws? Someone brought one to my shop and I used one quickly, but went back to hammering almost immediately. It's tricky to adjust and when I thought I got it right, the fret popped right out and it felt clunky to operate. Maybe Jaws I and deadblow right on top of the unit to seat the fret, but honestly for nearly 200 dollars I think not... Seems like a lot of skills to master that Jaws thing and it's only of limited usefulness if you think about it. You can't use it on set neck or acoustic guitars past the 10th fret. I saw a guitar someone tried to fret himself with a drill press, it was not good. The fret was sticking out and the fretboard itself looked terrible. I offered to redo the job for him and he refused. He used EVO wire by the way. |
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| Author: | Shaw [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I have the set up for pressing but don't use it. I like hammering them in. I use one of those yellow plastic front hammers and it's pretty quiet. I find the hammering relaxing and actually a whole lot quicker then the pressing method. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I have a small arbor press which I use most of the time (because it is small and handy and I fret before gluing the board on) but I also occasionally use my full size drill press on "odd" jobs. Both work fine. If you are having trouble using your drill press (and it's a full size one) I'm suspecting your slot sizings aren't properly matching your tangs. I've never measured it, but I suspect my loading is more like 50 - 100 pounds per fret rather than 500. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I've used my drill press with no problems to press frets into ebony and rosewood. Any floor mount 1/2" or better drill press should be fine unless it's very lightly built. I'm not sure rhat a bench mount unit would do it. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I'm using a 14" bench mounted drill press... they had a floor model but it's exactly the same except for column length. It is exactly the same as this one: http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Spee ... ress/G7943 but it doesn't say Grizzly on it. It can handle it fine but I can tell it doesn't like to be used as an arbor press, or rather the bench it's mounted on doesn't like it (it's just an old but heavy particleboard office desk with metal stand). It makes sense, drill presses aren't made for pressing, it's made for drilling. The problem I often have with pressing fret is that the frets would pop back up if the slot/tang fit were exact and it would only press properly if the fit is very tight. With an exact fit hammering would seat it but pressing for some reason just wouldn't be able to engage the barb unless a huge amount of force was used. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
Tai Fu wrote: I'm really feeling a drill press isn't designed to put out the required pressure. An arbor press can do more for sure but the drill press allows bigger items to be pressed. When I try to press them with the drill press I keep having a fear of actually damaging the drill press from the amount of pressure I put on the table. I'm still getting a feel for it, but I've started to use a bench pillar drill on a well supported bench (biggish - 650 watt, 7" throat, 80Kg weight) to press frets ("compound" fretboard). I use a block of wood under the drill table for support, glue in the slots, with "firm" but not excessive pressure (I have crushed rosewood FB), maybe 100 lb need to fully seat them?. Go in pretty slick. SM frets, SM fret saw, deadblow hammer to tap in the odd fret if not quite seated. I still need to level the frets, but not as much as hammering only. |
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| Author: | WilbPorter [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
Like Colin, I use a block of wood under the drill table. Fish glue in the slot, then press the fret in. So far, no problems. Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Goodin [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
SteveSmith wrote: I've used my drill press with no problems to press frets into ebony and rosewood. Any floor mount 1/2" or better drill press should be fine unless it's very lightly built. I'm not sure rhat a bench mount unit would do it. Ive used my bench mounted drill press with the presser that Stew Mac sells. Works fine. I have only done ebony fingerboards with it which can take a substantial amount of pressure without denting. How much pressure is by feel and experience...I put a bead of titebond on the bottom of the tang, set it in the fret slot, maybe a light tap with the hammer to get it to sit up straight, line up the press over the fret, push down until it seats, then push down quite hard, but not with all of my strength. You would just have to try it out and get a feel for it. |
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| Author: | Nils [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I use a hammer and the caul together. As in, I tap the frets into place by hitting the top of the caul. And thats my biggest fretting secret. I dont think I would ever go back to using just a hammer or actually pressing them. |
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| Author: | Goodin [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
Also, like Colin said, unless your fretboard is perfectly radiused you will have to do a small amount of taping with the hammer. |
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| Author: | Stuart Gort [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
I use a hammer to start the ends and an arbor and cauls to press them in. With softer woods like Purple Heart I can apply enough pressure with the arbor to crush the local area under a fret. I learned pretty quickly the optimal pressure to use, having fouled up a few frets. From that point on I had the right touch. I'd suggest testing on softer woods and finding that "feel" for yourself. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
Tai Fu wrote: I'm using a 14" bench mounted drill press... they had a floor model but it's exactly the same except for column length. It is exactly the same as this one: http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Spee ... ress/G7943 but it doesn't say Grizzly on it. Tai, that looks just like my old drill press but mine was a floor mount so I think yours would be fine.Don't forget that drill presses take a lot of pressure when drilling larger holes in metals like steel; more pressure than needed for fret pressing. Of course, as you noted, a sturdy bench is needed. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
He's right. When boring a 1/2" hole in a block of stainless, it takes a lot of pressure on that bit to keep it cutting clean, no matter how sharp. |
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| Author: | David Malicky [ Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pressing frets - how much pressure? |
On the amount of force, a small arbor press typically has a mechanical advantage of 15-25 (aka 'leverage ratio', which depends on the lever length, where you grip it, and pinion's pitch diameter). So if you apply 25 lbs to the handle, that's in the ballpark of 500 lb at the ram. http://www.dakecorp.com/products-detail ... 20Leverage http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-arbo ... -3552.html I'm guessing that small drill presses have a somewhat lower ratio. It's easy to check by rotating the handle 360 degrees: 2*pi*(the radius or length of the handle) / (Ram travel for 1 turn of the handle) |
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